MINUTES

SPECIAL CALLED MEETING

LAWTON CITY COUNCIL SPECIAL MEETING

MAY 21, 1998 - 5:30 P.M.

WAYNE GILLEY CITY HALL COUNCIL CHAMBER

The meeting was called to order at 5:30 p.m. by Cecil E. Powell, Mayor. Notice of meeting and agenda were posted on the City Hall notice board as required by State law.

ROLL CALL

PRESENT:    G. Wayne Smith, Ward One

        Richard Williams, Ward Two

        Jeff Sadler, Ward Three

        John Purcell, Ward Four

        Robert Shanklin, Ward Five

        Charles Beller, Ward Six

        Carol Green, Ward Seven

        Randy Warren, Ward Eight

ABSENT:    None.

ALSO PRESENT: Gil Schumpert, City Manager; Felix Cruz, City Attorney; Sandra Rench, Deputy City Clerk.

1.    Discuss Preliminary FY 1998-1999 City of Lawton Preliminary Budget, and take appropriate actions for consensus only. Exhibits: Information previously distributed.

Schumpert said in addition to the documents regarding the budget there were two requests for additional information which were provided: Capital Improvement Fund (Fund 35) as of May 7, 1998; and the second item includes the Increase in 1998 carryover, Additional revenue from landfill fees, Additional revenue from sales tax with Bar-S and Prison, and Additional revenue from water use by Bar-S and Prison.

Beller said he thought about the best way to handle the budget meetings and the role of the Council in the budget preparations and process. He said he was convinced the budget preparation process should be in the office of the city manager, the city manager should prepare the budget and bring it to the City Council to make certain necessary changes. He said he didn't have the wisdom or the expertise to tell department heads what is in their best interest, their equipment needs from one item to another or their need for two employees in one area over two employees in another area, etc. He said while it is their responsibility as good stewards of the funding to see what the ultimate product is he firmly believed it is the responsibility of the city manager. He said the city manager should bring the budget to the Council, the finished product, and then the Council should direct him as to what they expect him to provide, if it is an increase, where the increases in funding should come from. He said he firmly believed that what happened the other evening was a process that should not have been in place to start with. He said at the end of that meeting, Mr. Williams asked the question of Mr. Huck, "in your heart of hearts do you think there is a better way of doing this." Beller said there was a much better way of doing the entire process and it would behoove them as Council members to consider a better way to do the budget and the best way would be to put the responsibility where it belongs, in the office of the city manager.

Williams said regarding information they asked the city manager to provide, he has asked for and hasn't seen a reference made by Mr. Pondrom regarding a carry over account from CDBG and asked if Schumpert would see that Mr. Pondrom would provide that information.

Purcell said he didn't like the procedure they use but didn't know of a better way to do it because they put it in the office of the city manager and he brings them a budget. Purcell asked Beller if he is saying they either approve the budget or disapprove it and if they disapprove it what guidance do they give him to come back again to fix the budget.

Beller said the department heads know best how to spend their budgets and didn't think the Council is that involved in the daily operations to really know what they need, if the Council said the budget should be $61 million they would tell the city manager and he could work with the department heads to bring the budget back. He said some of the Council members have personal agendas and he may be one of them, but it is evident when certain department heads get in front of them they are ready to do battle and didn't think that was the way to do it and didn't think that was what the Council was elected for.

Shanklin said he didn't know how it evolved where the department heads appear before the Council but could remember prior times when Mr. Metzinger appeared on a department basis and then Mr. Hopkins and his department heads were ready for any questions from the Council. He said the only thing he was concerned with the other night was that they had asked the department to be reorganized, it has been a year and it still hasn't been done. He said he has a personal agenda, he still wants to know what some people do seven months out of the year and no one seems to answer or care but those are hundreds of thousands of dollars. He said if they just blanket accept a budget then they are duty bound to raise fees which is the water, it doesn't make any difference whether it is a $3 rolling stock fee, $1 here or $2 there it still comes out of the water bill. He said he felt strongly that it is the city manager's job but was satisfied he had worked on this with the departments and knew their budgets would grow every year because everyone's budget grows every year. He said they still have to sell this to the tax payers and if this is the only way they can get there they would do it but the other night they were talking about supervisors in one department, one area. He said they thought four months ago this was a rollover and it was going to be a piece of cake and the way it looks to him right now it will be one of the most in-depth budgets that he has ever participated in. He said the city manager should be the one on the cat bird seat with his department heads backing him up and he would much rather ask the city manager questions pertaining to policy. He said maybe this is all they should have expected in Parks and Recreation but it wasn't what he was looking for. He said they had the RFP's out for grass cutting and hasn't heard the end result which is very important to have in order to know where they are. He said he got a copy of the RFP's but it included tracts of land in different places and he hoped in time he could be briefed where they are on that. He said the city manager should have to answer and the department heads back him up.

Green said she would like to see them in a different setting because it gives the impression they are in a court forum and someone is on trial. She said she would like to go to a more relaxed setting such as one of the recreation centers to keep them from looking down on the directors, label it as a retreat and have the department heads present. She said this is a tense  situation because they don't really know what they are doing with this budget. She said she would like to see the city manager present it instead of the department heads who are getting off work at 5:00 p.m. and within 30 minutes are here, that is a lot of pressure and a lot of stress and as a council member didn't want to put that type of pressure on anyone at any time.

Williams said he likes the way they do this, since it is aired on television it gives the citizens of Lawton an opportunity to get a picture of how departments are actually funded. He said this is probably one of the largest responsibilities this body has to deal with and it shouldn't be passed off as a 30-minute session where they say it looks good or cut it 5% or 10%. He said in past Council's when the budget information became available there was also information regarding budget decrement cuts and was sure those Council's were looking at those to identify ways they could make some cuts and how those cuts would impact the departments. He said as far as the city staff and department heads this is their budget, they go before the city manager to justify what their needs are and then it is presented to the City Council. He said whether it is presented by the city manager or the individual department heads is immaterial to him but there have been times when they have not cut budgets and have added positions. He said it gives each department head an opportunity to justify some of their expenses and provides them with opportunities, through the initiatives to do something different that may cost more money but may prove to be a savings long term and could definitely provide a better service to the community so he likes it, it takes some time for them but that is what they get paid for.

Beller said when it comes to the line items, such as on page 137, where they have $386,000 in capital outlay in the police uniform division, his position is that he shouldn't tell the chief he shouldn't get 12 sedans he should only get 10 and maybe he doesn't need a computer, that is the police chief's responsibility and not the Council's to cut the budget. He said the Council can tell them what they expect as far as monetary cuts but to tell them what to spend it on is what he is concerned about. He said Mr. Williams alluded to the camera and sometimes some of them play to the camera and is concerned because they have personal agendas and they are playing to the camera instead of conducting council business and maybe they should ask that the camera to be taken out.

Purcell said he agreed with Beller, maybe the department heads are the wrong people and maybe it should be the city manager, but he didn't think they were telling them what to cut out if they want to cut out. He said he won't support a $5.65 utility increase on the water bill to balance the budget which means they have to go back to the manager and they can make it easy and tell him he has to take about $2.2 million out of the budget, the council can leave and the manager can come back. He said if that is the way to do it he could guarantee the manager will take most of that right out of equipment and they will be back in the same predicament they are always in because that is the easiest place to take it out of although maybe this manager won't, but generally it comes out of equipment.

Schumpert said if the council tells him to cut the budget by $2 million he will go back to the Finance Director and ask what percentage it is and whatever he tells him he will go back to the department heads and tell them they are sharing the grief equally and they will have to cut their budget by X percent and bring it back. He said he is not agreeing or disagreeing with Mr. Beller but the police chief knows better what he needs to accomplish his level of service, where he can take risks and where he can't so if it is 2%, for example, he will tell the police chief to cut his budget by 2% and bring it back and he will be required to live within the budget he submits.

Purcell said whether Schumpert does it or it is given to each department, the department is going to come back in and it will come out of equipment and three or four years from now they won't have any vehicles that are running because it has been proven they won't cut out the people and that is where 75% to 80% of the budget is and there is a reluctance to cut spaces. He said he is not sure they are telling them every little thing to do as much as they are saying what they think they don't need, if they want it then can have it but that is how much money they are going to lose as opposed to saying a 2% cut or whatever it turns out to be and is not sure they should be doing this with department heads, possibly they should be doing this with the city manager or they can take the easy way out and say just cut $2.2 million and give it back to the manager.

Powell asked if when the city manager goes back to department heads if he will give guidance and direction or simply give them a number to cut. Schumpert said he would give them a number to cut. He said the premise is that they have a level of service they are expected to maintain, for example in sanitation their level of service is to pick it up and if they miss someone they have a route supervisor that goes by and gets it. He said if the Council tells him to cut 2.5% that department head has to look at the budget and determine how to meet the level of service, he can't do that because he doesn't have the independent knowledge of what the needs are. He said if they come back and say they don't want to supervise an activity they want to privatize, give it to a concessionaire or bid it out to provide the level of service, they can do that and it would decrease the number of employees and resources or the Council can tell them they don't want that level of service that they want once a week trash pick up, they can do that. He said Mr. Purcell is right, for the police chief to maintain that same level of service he has to take risks in his 200 and 300 series accounts, he can't take the risk of reducing his officers because that is an unacceptable risk. He said some of the things they have done in the past dictates what they do today, as an example, previous councils and this council approved the one man one car policy, which means almost 20 vehicles a year for the chief to maintain that level of service.

Shanklin said last Tuesday night, as far as he was concerned, the gentleman wasn't prepared, they never did get an organizational chart. He said they have been on television since approximately 1987 and didn't agree that it was the problem. He said they had a situation concerning trees and a problem with School House Slough took them over a year and a half to get consummated and it should not have taken that long. He said as far as he was concerned the gentleman had a semi-breakdown or whatever the other night but it wasn't because of any of them forcing it on him, if he wasn't prepared to come here then they shouldn't have had him here and the city manager should have known that. He said they have 12 vehicles tonight, that means 91 vehicles in the last four to five years have been bought in the police department, they have 165 police officers and if they are going one for one asked how long a police car will last. He said they have bought 91 vehicles from rolling stock, capital outlay and grant money and he didn't know how often they were changing them or what the mileage was on replacement. He said their bureaucracy is growing every year and at some point in time they have to stop it and go back to a certain task level and not take it out of capital outlay or materials because there isn't any sense in having 50 people at the barn if they don't have any gravel or asphalt to work with.

Powell said there has been considerable discussion on the way they are conducting the budget meetings. He said he liked the fact that the budget is prepared and the city manager is who they go directly to versus going to each one of them, with the department heads here and if there are questions by the council persons then the city manager can go directly to the department head and ask why they need something and it can be answered right there. He said he has seen that work very effectively in the public schools. He said Green asked for the meetings to be held in a more relaxed atmosphere and Williams has said to keep is as it is.

Warren said in his experience on the Council, as a whole, department heads have received more by appearing before the Council than what has been taken away from them. He asked Chief Adamson if he would rather come before the Council at budget time or would he rather they go through the city manager and work it out. He said he feels that the department heads have received a lot more than they have had taken away from them.

Adamson said he appreciated the Council's position in supporting him and the department over the last few years. He said they had some problems with their vehicles, the fleet was in terrible shape and the Council helped them in that regard and was quite pleased with the position the Council has taken with many of the issues he brought up in the past. He said in regard to the question of his coming before the Council there is a part of him that would prefer not to be here, department heads are sometimes abused by the Council and it is uncalled for in some cases.

Powell asked that they move on, everyone has had an opportunity to express themselves and appreciated the input and unless he gets further direction from the Council they will proceed with the budget discussion.

Powell said if someone wants to get this on the agenda for the meeting on Tuesday it would have to be done prior to 5:00 p.m. Friday. The Council members asked what Powell was referring to. Powell said he was referencing an item to change the way they are doing the budget. The Council members agreed they could change the format without having an item but agreed to continue with the previous format and at the end of the meeting determine if they want to continue in the same format.

POLICE SERVICES

65 POLICE HEADQUARTERS

Chief Adamson said the Police Department has 5 activities starting with 65 and going through 70 which is a new activity this year consisting only of contractual obligations the department has with other agencies. The money in Activity 70 was in Activity 65 last year as Account 231 and was separated to provide a clearer picture of what Activity 65 actually spends. He reviewed Activity 65.

Purcell asked if the increase is due to the Community Intervention Center and the Chief said that was the main reason for the increase in the activity and the overall budget increase was from the 100 accounts.

66 POLICE UNIFORM

Chief Adamson reviewed the activity which is the largest division in the police department and the changes in the personnel has to do with the department initiatives; the 3 positions at the front desk which were uniform officers in Activity 68 last year have been transferred to this division; a Lieutenant position has been initiated to be civilianized in Activity 68 so those 3 uniform officers would now be in Activity 66. Adamson explained the initiative which would increase 3 DARE Officers through an agreement with Ft. Sill which is being negotiated. A request in another initiative would be to increase from 6 captain rank positions to 7 captains, the cost being the difference between a lieutenant's salary and a captain's salary.

Adamson reviewed the capital outlay items and where the items would be used. Shanklin asked if they needed another boat at the Lake. Adamson said they are trying to retire a boat that is 7 years old that has structural damage, metal fatigue, and the engine is in bad repair.

Shanklin asked if the overtime for the lakes is paid from this activity. Adamson said it is included in the overtime account 108.

Shanklin asked if they over patrol their lakes. Adamson said no. Shanklin asked if the other lakes in the state are patrolled like this. Adamson said he didn't know.

Shanklin said they need to see what they are going to do with Parks and Recreation at the lakes before they solidify the budget because the capital outlay includes a 4WD Vehicle that is used 7 months out of the year and a patrol vessel. Adamson said the 4WD vehicle will be used year-round because the supervisor at the lakes will be assigned the vehicle he performs other duties as assigned by the duty commander.

Discussion was held on the vehicle being used at the lakes by a lieutenant position assigned to the lakes who is over two officers and the present type of vehicles currently being used; the officers patrol both lakes.

Adamson said Account 248 previously showed zero as the budgeted amount and is currently budgeted at $3,000 because it has been moved from Activity 68 to pay for the utility costs of the maintenance shop building which is controlled in this activity.

67 POLICE CID

Adamson reviewed the activity which has an initiative to increase one captain in this division and at that time the major, who is the commander of this division, would be assigned additional duties to include supervising the Criminal Investigation Division, the Service Division and the Training Division which divisions are  all non-uniform personnel to include civilians and the additional captain would be totally involved in the day to day activities.

Adamson reviewed the capital outlay items and where the items would be used. Account 221 has an increase from $7,260 to $11,000 which includes video tapes for the video system which is being put in the interview room and for a copier for the division to include extra money for copies which are being taken from Activity 68.

Powell questioned Account 112, Workers Compensation increase and Schumpert explained that accounting determines the amount to be budgeted based on the previous year's claims.

68 POLICE TECHNICAL SERVICES

Adamson reviewed the division which contains civilian employees with the exception of Lieutenant Livingston who will be retiring in September at which time Adamson wants to hire a civilian to maintain the current duties which would work just as well and would save the City money if he could get a good office manager and supervisor in that position. The police officers have been moved to Activity 66 as explained earlier.

Adamson reviewed the capital outlay items and whether the items would be used.

Account 221 was reduced from $37,000 to $35,000 due to moving funds to activity 67 for the copier requested in that activity.

Account 248 was reduced by $3,000 due to moving the funds to Activity 66.

69 TRAINING

Adamson reviewed the activity which includes the range master who will be retiring in August at which time Adamson would like to replace the position with a civilian who could perform the same duties. The reduction in officers is due to the initiative regarding the DARE officers which will be moved and the range officer to be civilianized which is the firearm's coordinator for a total of 5 people in the division.

Adamson reviewed the capital outlay items.

Purcell said one of the initiatives is to combine the DARE program with Ft. Sill and understood that currently there are 4 officers in the program and if they do the initiative Ft. Sill will provide 3 officers and Adamson will provide 1 DARE officer to supervise those 3. He said it seems as though this is a great initiative that would save money because it is the perfect opportunity to see if they need these 3 positions on patrol or if it is time to say they can eliminate those 3 positions and need to consider it because they don't want to do worse He said it shouldn't reduce and may not increase their services as much as they want and asked Adamson if he could live with having 3 less police officers on patrol by eliminating those 3 spaces due to the DARE program.

Adamson said the DARE officers are not in the program year round, he uses them in the summer which is helpful because there is usually more activity in the summer, if he lost 2 positions keeping one to move to patrol it would be a wash but was not advocating that.

Purcell said he wasn't suggesting necessarily all 3 but if they consider the manpower over a year, DARE being 9 months with the school and the 3 summer months, which is 3 months times 3 extra people which is about one person a year worth of effort and it seemed they could basically accomplish the same thing by eliminating 2 of the spaces and have 1 extra person all year long. He said that is what they need to start looking at with all the departments without reducing services but to find some savings in personnel because that is where all the costs are in the budget.

Adamson said the government is going to pay the salary of 4 officers in the COPS program, they recently hired and are training those people and when those people are trained they will have to assign officer to Community Oriented Policing in areas of the City and was hoping to move 2 of those DARE officers into this program to give them either a larger or additional area to police. He said it wasn't going to be traditional policing, he was going to try to augment the COPS program and get more into a community oriented stance. He said he was considering moving the third officer into criminal investigations in a special function that Major Thorne has requested another officer for whom would be beneficial.

Purcell said they would be talking about vacant spaces eventually not being filled but they are almost increasing services and was not sure they could afford the increased services.

Adamson said with any government grant where they draw salaries for officers one of the things they can't do is supplant personnel, they hired 4 officers last week and if the following month they let 3 officers go that might be a problem.

Shanklin provided a scenario where a person was caught stealing something from him, followed the person and then called 911 with a request for an officer. After 30 minutes 911 was again called and was told they didn't have anyone that could respond, although there was an officer writing a ticket a block away that officer couldn't respond. Shanklin asked if Adamson was satisfied with how they are dispatching and should the officer who was writing a ticket have responded to a felony because it was over an hour before an officer responded. Adamson said a lot of people call 911 because of loud music or barking dogs, calling 911 does not upgrade it to an emergency status, every call coming into the communications center is evaluated and prioritized so if a minor call comes in it does not upgrade it to an emergency call. He said when the call is received if it is the highest priority call they will try to break an officer off from whatever they are doing if they can, if there are no officers available and have to have a response they will make a general broadcast for an officer to make a call. He said in the situation Shanklin described if it was that long of a time period he could only assume that an officer could have been freed before an hour went by but would like to look at the logs, etc. and determine where the officers were before determining a mistake was made.

Shanklin said if a person calls in who has had a heart attack and can't do anything else what is done then. Adamson said they dispatch fire, police and an ambulance because they don't know what the situation is.

Green asked if any of the last 3 police officers hired were women or minority. Adamson said they hired 12 people, one African American male, no females and they are about to hire a Hispanic.

Powell asked why there is approximately a $22,000 increase in total overtime for all activities. Adamson said officers generate overtime if they are called back to duty, if they are working over because of a call they are on, when they are subpoenaed and appear in court by contract they are paid a minimum of 2 hours overtime and some of the training issues can generate overtime if the officers are traveling extra hours, etc.

Powell asked when it becomes cost effective to add employees versus paying overtime well knowing there will be times when they have overtime. Adamson said the cost of an employee is expensive.

Powell asked how much overlap there is of the City services with the County where it would be cost effective to do the combination under the same umbrella and if it would be a significant figure. Adamson said records management is one of biggest areas, the City could take over the record's management for the County and handle all of their reports, filings, etc. which would be more efficient for both agencies and it wouldn't be much of a burden especially when they get their records management in very soon. He said they need a City/County jail to get the City out of the jail business which would save the City approximately $350,000 a year to maintain the jail. Powell said they are anticipating a meeting with the County and would like the Chief to be prepared to attend.

70 SERVICE CONTRACTS

Adamson said this account was moved out of Activity 65 for the contract services only.

POLICE INITIATIVES

Schumpert said one of the first initiatives was to create a public safety department by combining the fire and police and the auditing director was tasked to determine the benefit and the Council should have been provided with that document.

PUBLIC SAFETY DEPARTMENT

Williams asked how much it would cost to do this initiative. Adamson said the program should save them a million a year after about 3 to 5 years and provided the following information on start up costs: $56,000 for the weapons; bunker gear - approximately $1,800 to outfit each person which could be worked out over a three to five-year period; possible cost for overtime for training, etc. and possible additional cost for vehicles unless they go to a two man per car system which Adamson didn't advocate. Once full implementation is reached more positions through attrition could be eliminated than just the 19 that were shown as eliminated in the proposal.

Adamson said when they consider the savings and cost the other consideration is the increased productivity and activity they will have. He said it is a bold move, will take some good management, training and time and they will have some difficulties especially with people not wanting to do this and a firm department director manager would be needed to implement this. He said other cities are doing it and Lawton could do it.

Williams asked what other communities are working on this. Adamson said Kalamazoo, Michigan which is approximately the same size as Lawton has been in the program for approximately 10 years and has a Web site; Spartanburg, South Carolina - population approximately 60,000 has had a similar program since 1984, they have a Web site and their director has estimated that it saves their city about $1 million a year over a split system, and Visalia, California, there are none to his knowledge in Oklahoma. Adamson said there may be some legal requirements to accomplish this but it would be a giant step forward for the City.

Cruz said they would have to negotiate with the fire and police unions because it is a condition of employment and they would have to build from there.

Shanklin asked that an explanation be given of what the initiative is for the benefit of the tax payers watching. Powell explained the basis of the initiative to combine the fire and police departments as one unit.

Cruz said they have collective bargaining agents for the police and fire and they would have to go back and negotiate with those unions and if they agreed to this concept it could be achievable.

Shanklin said he received the pros and cons for the combined system and they are looking at saving a million dollars and eliminate the 24-hour shifts of the fire department. Cruz said it is achievable but they would have to get with both unions to negotiate a combined public safety department.

Shanklin asked for the earliest possible implementation date this could be achieved if it was agreed to. Adamson said full implementation would take at least 3 years. Shanklin asked if any of the police staff had been to any of the locations to audit their system. Adamson said no. Shanklin asked if it wouldn't be to their best interest to look at places where it is in place. Adamson said they had to start at the beginning because there would be no reason to waste the money to go anywhere if there wasn't any support from the Council for the program. He said some of the Council members and police and fire officials should go.

Warren said it is a tremendous opportunity and it isn't so much the cost savings as it is the number of people that would be doing the jobs, it is basically an increase in both sides, there are more firefighters and police officers in the field. He said they need to move forward and consider it and if they don't do this recommended considering the Additional Considerations included at the end of the Initiative information.

Beller asked how they would begin the process if it would be by consensus to pursue it. Adamson said Cruz has talked about negotiating with the unions so that would be one of the starting spots if they have to do that. He said the Council can create and eliminate job descriptions and if the Council instructed that on July 1, 2002 there would be no fire or police job descriptions only public safety job descriptions then if you didn't fit that job description you would not have a job.

Purcell supported the initiative and said one of the first things they need to do is visit the closest place because the initiative would provide more service to the public at less cost. He said they received a packet of information in the mail which arrived anonymously, the information was written in 1980 and things have changed since that time.

Powell said a consensus of the Council would be needed to move forward.

Smith asked if they would actually be saving a $1 million. Schumpert said Endicott provided a document on the initiatives with basic assumptions of the savings.

Adamson said if all 19 positions were eliminated from the police department Endicott indicated it would be a savings of $757,868, if all the positions were eliminated from the fire department it would be $698,251; the built in overtime in the fire department would be removed which is another savings of $92,533 every year. He said after full implementation it is possible that a few other positions could be eliminated through attrition after it was fully implemented.

Cruz said if the City Council concurs and directs the staff to proceed in this direction the legal staff will start doing something to try to overcome the hurdle and would start as soon as possible, one of them is to negotiate with the union and would get the two people together from the groups to discuss this and there are several others to include a charter amendment etc. but all of them are within reach.

Powell suggested appointing a committee to look at and study this and bring it back with the pros and cons to the Council to consider. He said the chief's of police and fire, council persons and possible citizens on a committee.

Shanklin said they need to send an envoy to one of the locations before they do anything and they will probably find that more jobs have been eliminated through attrition, etc.

Williams suggested hearing from Chief Barrington.

Chief Barrington said this is not a new concept; the PSO (Public Safety Organization) departments are usually in smaller communities and as they grow they eventually split to fire and police departments. He said he has seen towns with populations from 500 to 25,000 utilizing the PSO system and a town in Michigan evolved to where they had to divide. He said they can cross train but they are tasking them with a tremendous amount of responsibility, the firefighters not only have to know all their equipment and the stress factors but smoke from a structure can tell them a lot about what is taking place inside the structure. He said if they evolve to this they are probably looking at two to three generations before it actually could come to fruition for what they are trying to achieve, however Durham, North Carolina, went PSO in 1977 and in 1987 they went back to split departments. He said if he were the chief of police he would certainly advocate this type of deal.

Beller asked why the police chief would advocate it more than Barrington. Barrington said it puts more officers on the street and referenced the insurance dropping, one of the major concerns with the ISO rating that came in last year was in regard to the minimum staffing level and that is why they call in overtime because they have three man stations.

Beller said if there are 300 people in the police department and 300 people in the fire department cross trained and go down to 500 people there are now 500 people to fight fires. Barrington said these are two types of professions, in fire service everything is on a team concept, the crews train and live together and know each others limits whereas in the police department, although he doesn't have any experience in the police department, they have some teams such as swat teams that come together and train for certain types of activities there isn't that cohesiveness with them as there is with the firefighters. Beller said they don't live together 24 hours a day. Barrington said that is just part of the animal of the fire service, if this was really a save money resource and such a super thing to do there would be more cities that would do this.

Beller said he is not knocking the fire department but in the initiative, in a 24-hour work day, how much production do they get out of a fireman, 8 hours is free time and 8 hours he gets to bunk. Barrington said Tulsa and Oklahoma City have basically the same type scheduling and shift changes and there is a variance in the hourly wage with police and fire.

Barrington said the police department has been real cooperative in assisting them at fires such as blocking traffic but there are running processes and procedures they go through and he couldn't envision a pumper trying to get to a house when there could be 3 or 4 vehicles blocking the means of access to the structure in addition to a police officer taking a fire extinguisher into a structure and the OSHA guidelines require two people in and two out rule, it only takes 3 minutes for a fire to make a room inhabitable and you need a team to go in and explained the process.

Powell said if they want to pursue this they need to get a group together to visit locations where this type of program is in effect or has been in effect and provide information from those places.

Shanklin said their fires have been reduced and are responding more to emergency calls rather than fires.

Sadler left the meeting at this time.

Schumpert reviewed the last portion of the initiative, Additional Considerations in regard to fire suppression and equipment and asked if the Council members want the task force to also look at these items or separate them.

Williams suggested having this separate because if they are going to consider sprinkling houses a workshop may be in order with the building and real estate communities involved who will be impacted the most. Warren said Atlanta, Georgia and several other cities are moving toward this consideration.

Schumpert asked if the Council would prefer a workshop after the budget and the Council agreed.

CIVILIANIZATION OF TWO POSITIONS

Purcell asked if this initiative had been figured into the budget and was told it had been.

Adamson said the police/fire initiative was in no way an attack against the fire department or Barrington and he had no personal ax to grind he just felt strongly about the initiative.

Powell said they are attempting to pull the city together not apart and didn't want the firefighters to think there is any animosity from the previous discussion.

PROPOSAL FOR COMBINING CITY-MILITARY LAW ENFORCEMENT DISPATCHING

Adamson reviewed the initiative. He said item 6 of the initiative, the FATS system, cannot be transferred but the City is allowed to use it.

Cruz said they have prepared an agreement between the City and Ft. Sill to accommodate the combined dispatch center. He said the agreement has been sent to Ft. Sill for approval and when it is returned it will be a matter to be considered by the City Council. He said Ft. Sill will provide the City with personnel and equipment to operate their system in conjunction with the DARE program and he didn't see much cost for the City other than providing the space. He said the agreement will be for 179 days and at the expiration it will be extended for the same amount of time because if the agreement is for 180 days or more it has to be approved by higher headquarters.

Beller asked what action the Council needs to take other than yes they would encourage the agreement. Schumpert said that is all they need and they will bring the agreement back to them. Beller said it appears to be a win-win.

Purcell said the dispatching is great and thinks if they do this they need to eliminate two positions somewhere and does not mean people but through vacancies somewhere along the way.

Williams said this is a win-win situation and if they are going to try to decrease the numbers they are either going to listen to all the departments and tell Schumpert to cut so much percent or suggest elimination such as this.

Beller asked if that is where they would need to cut positions. Schumpert said this is a different situation, Ft. Sill has put together a public safety department which grew to other discussion of the DARE program and the FATS system and Purcell and Williams agree with the initiative however if they do this they don't need to retain all the positions and simply move them over notwithstanding the discussion of how the chief would use those positions. He said this is based on an initiative by the police chief and the communications department.

Cruz said under the COPS program they gave the federal government the assurance that getting the program would not in any way displace or be used as a basis for displacement any police officer on duty or on the manning roll right now.

Purcell said his motion was to eliminate two DARE positions and approve the rest of the initiative. Cruz said if it eliminates two positions and it ends up eliminating two police officers from the manning roll right now it could be perceived by the Federal Government that they are displacing two police officer positions which would be contrary to the assurance when they applied for the COPS program.

Schumpert said they approved the civilianization of two positions and asked if that will be construed as displacing two positions. Cruz said the changes are rotating the positions within the department they are not cutting positions. Schumpert said they are cutting uniformed officers. Shanklin said they won't be replaced through attrition. Purcell said that is what this is in the DARE program.

Powell said perhaps the motion should include through attrition. Cruz said he would have to review the assurance under the program and come back to the Council with his determination.

Purcell withdrew his motion until they receive the determination from Cruz before they finish the budget.

UPGRADE OF PART-TIME PAWN CLERK TO FULL-TIME POLICE CLERK

Adamson reviewed the initiative.

Williams asked if there is a big problem with stolen items. Adamson said there are a lot of problems with stolen merchandise in pawn shops and the clerk assists the detectives with finding the merchandise. He said the DARE position he was considering moving into the CID was someone who would be tasked with directly working with the pawn shops on more of a full time basis because more burglaries could be solved if they attacked it in a more aggressive manner.

PROPOSAL TO EQUIP. MARKED POLICE CARS WITH PLUG-IN LAPTOP COMPUTERS

Adamson reviewed and explained the initiative.

Purcell asked if they had discussed this previously and were considering being able to do this with some type of grant. Ronnie Ward said they submitted the paperwork for 8 traffic officers and this is to go further. Purcell said it would be better if they could do these each year with grants.

Warren asked if this would be one laptop for each car or could they swap from shift to shift. Graalum said each car would need a modem in it but the lap tops could be moved from shift to shift which would be more cost effective. Shanklin asked where they would pick up the lap tops. Graalum said they would pick them up when they go into the station for the shift briefings.

Adamson said the lap tops would be under the control of the watch commanders.

Williams suggested continuing to write the grants.

PROPOSAL TO EQUIP MARKED POLICE CARS WITH VEHICLE VIDEO SURVEILLANCE SYSTEMS

Adamson reviewed the initiative.

Powell asked Purcell if it was his recommendation to pursue the previous initiative through grants. Purcell said the initiative was over and above the grants and recommended they continue to pursue the grants and the Council members agreed.

Powell asked if Adamson was suggesting that the video system be part of the bidding process for the vehicles and Adamson said that was correct.

Discussion was held on the current video cameras in use.

Smith said the initiative was to include the videos in the future specifications for future purchases. Adamson said it would be part of the equipment in future vehicles so they have a replacement schedule and they are not included in the budget. Schumpert said if all the vehicles were to be equipped with the videos the Chief would probably have to give up purchasing one vehicle. Purcell said some of the vehicles came in cheaper so there may be some flexibility in the cost.

COMBINED CITY-COUNTY LAW ENFORCEMENT FACILITY

Adamson reviewed the initiative.

CHAPLAIN PROGRAM

Adamson reviewed the initiative.

Powell suggested a volunteer program and Adamson said they would have a list of persons to use on a rotating basis. Green related a situation which occurred previously where a chaplain was needed.

Green said the job description may eliminate a number of people because they may not have credentials in counseling and thought it should be left open.

ROLL CALL ON MOTION, AYE: Smith, Williams, Purcell, Shanklin, Beller, Green, Warren.

The Council recessed at 7:30 p.m. and returned with roll call reflecting all members present except Sadler, Williams and Green at 7:40 p.m. Williams and Green returned to the meeting during the Fire presentation.

FIRE SERVICES

95 FIRE OPERATIONS

Barrington reviewed the activity.

Green asked how many minorities are employed. Barrington said he doesn't have the breakdown but there are a couple African Americans, an American Indian, possibly a couple Hispanics and no women.

Smith said Account 312 includes 2 riding mowers and asked if all mowing wouldn't be done through the contract. Barrington said historically the fire department has taken care of their own mowing, maintenance, upkeep, etc. He said Fire Station 2 at the airport, 6 on the east side of town and 7 at Wyatt Acres have large areas to mow and they take a lot of pride in the upkeep of the grounds. He said he received a letter from Building Maintenance deadlining 3 of the mowers and he thought they could get by with 2 and possibly piece the other one together until a later time.

Warren said he thought he understood the mowing contract and asked if any of that property was included in the contract. Schumpert said not to his knowledge, since they have the personnel at the Stations if they have time it is far less expensive because all it costs the City to get those areas mowed is the mower.

Beller asked what the emergency response vehicle in account 311 is. Barrington said he had to take the vehicle out last year to absorb the pay increases but it is the deputy chief's emergency response vehicle.

Powell asked what account 321 for the Exposure Decon Area was. Barrington said when firefighters come back from a call this is an area they use when they clean up their equipment, it is a decontamination area.

Beller commended the fire department for their emergency responses and medical emergency responses.

Williams said because of the fire department and other city services the ISO rating is at a class 4 rating and appreciated the assistance from the Fire Department on the Certified Cities Fire committee and commended the department.

Green said they were able to see how quick they respond on Tuesday. She encouraged the possibility of having a program for minorities and going into the high schools. Barrington said they hope to go into the schools on career day and explore some other avenues of recruiting. Beller said there is a concern about that but all they have to do is put in an application. Green said so many of those who would like to apply feel they need special skills and degrees and thought if they could go to the high schools, inform them of what the criteria was to be a firefighter, they would be able to apply.

96 CIVIL DEFENSE

Schumpert reviewed the activity.

FIRE DEPARTMENT INITIATIVES

REORGANIZATION OF THE FIRE PREVENTION DIVISION

Barrington reviewed the initiative.

Beller asked if they are changing the work week of the inspection investigator. Barrington said they still need a functioning fire marshal's office, the gist of the initiative is to have an inspector investigator on shift where during the day time he would go to the fire marshal's office and conduct inspections and at 5:00 p.m. he would return to his 24 hour shift.

Purcell said it looked as though the initiative was to add more people and to give several people a pay raise and was unsure of the number of people and the cost, savings, etc. involved because it isn't clear. Schumpert said it increases 7 officer positions, the clerk would be upgraded to a Clerk III and the fire marshal would be upgraded to deputy chief. Purcell said they are also hiring another clerk. Schumpert said the new positions are a clerk, assistant fire marshal, public relations recruiting and an investigator II for each shift.

Purcell said there are three positions currently and the junior clerk so the chief is asking for 4 positions. Barrington said the junior clerk is a future position, the request is for 4 positions, the public education recruiter and an upgrade of the clerk and the fire marshal. Barrington said he didn't have the figures but would provide them.

Beller requested they table this initiative until they get the figures of what it will cost.

Cruz said the proposal of changing ranks are conditions of employment and would need to be negotiated. He said if the Council is generous enough to do this they would probably accept it but they may be opening themselves up to an unfair labor practice because they are doing something without the benefit of negotiation and would need to negotiate this.

Powell asked Barrington to bring the figures back to Council.

EMERGENCY MEDICAL SERVICE - AMBULANCE

Barrington reviewed the initiative and asked for direction from the Council.

Williams said if they are going to be providing emergency medical service they should either be in the business or out of the business or charging for the business and thinks they should be moving toward this and it could be a money making service and a service to the community.

Barrington said they received a proposal to assist in setting this up and may have to go out for RFP's if they decide to do this.

Beller asked what happens if they displace the current emergency services provided by Kirk's and Memorial Hospital and they need to look at long term. He said if they institute an EMS service through the fire department there needs to be some kind of subscription or membership because it has to be paid for, the ambulances today charge $500 to $600 and they can't provide it free. He said it could work from the fire department if it doesn't present labor problems and is a deeply involved item that will take a lot of study.

Warren said it is a good idea but would like to see it as a separate entity for the reason it will be easier to understand costs and have it separated from the fire department budget so they know what it will cost. He said the most important consideration is that they either have to get in or get out, they can't stay where they are, they are providing a service except for transporting the person to the hospital.

Beller asked if they would be the sole provider of ambulance services if this were to go into effect. Barrington said the City Attorney would have to develop a code such as an exclusionary rule or something like that. Schumpert said they could have an option, it could be like the commercial refuse collection.

Beller said the wrecker and ambulance services are on a rotating basis so would the City also be on a rotating basis. Williams said to justify the total cost in this venture they would want to run just about every call and that is not to say the intent is to run anyone out of business, that was one of the comments that came up previously in their meetings. He said Comanche Memorial provides ambulance service and was not sure if they were making any money or not and wanted to provide a service they would have some control over.

Powell said they need to consider this carefully because there are cities across the state who don't have any ambulance service.

Warren said it is conceivable the City could consider purchasing the other service provider out but it wouldn't be their intent to squeeze anyone out of business.

Beller said it needs to be considered and they need to know what can be saved and what is needed.

Powell agreed with the council members.

Purcell said the need to consider what the cost would be and could run it almost as a separate entity because right now they send whatever truck is available, they may need to put an ambulance of some kind in every fire station to make the initial emergency run. He said it could also be a revenue producer if it is combined within the City because they have the maintenance vehicles where someone else may not.

Powell suggested that Barrington bring back some figures, have the City Attorney bring the legalities involved and then make a decision.

BUDGET ITEMS TO CONSIDER (MEMORANDUM FROM FINANCE DIRECTOR)

Purcell said there is approximately $1.2 million carry over and thought it would be higher.

Livingston said it is hard to project a carry over number because he is projecting what they won't be spending and saving at the very end of the year and that is what they can use to offset some of the following years budget and also if they over collect their revenues. He said when they prepare the preliminary budget they calculate salaries from January and calculate every position at the step of the person in the position and have been doing that for several years; any vacant positions they use an imaginary person in the position and work them through the steps and the salaries are calculated conservatively so they will lapse some money in salaries for the whole budget. He said he can't take the huge number of accounts and recalculate all the positions because the positions are calculated manually the computer doesn't do that. When the budget is prepared the departments plan on spending everything but they still include some of those funds in the budget. As the year goes on he looks at what they were lapsing and reviewed the Comparison of Expenditures an Unexpended balances sheet provided. He uses these numbers to support the budget and if he is down a million dollars in carry over and it is averaging the same number every month and going up it supports the number he has in the budget. Last year he had a carry over of $2.6 million and if the lapse number is more than a million dollars less he is going to be close to the $1.3 million number he is saying he will have in carry over. He said the revenues will take some away from the carry over and as they go on he had an optimistic moment last month when sales tax was 18% up but when they looked at it they were collecting some sales tax that were corrections because of one of the utilities had two postings in the month of April and when he got sales tax in May he was down 2% as compared to the same month a year ago. He said if sales tax is going up they may be able to put money in this but now it doesn't look that way. He said utilities are the other big items and the water revenues are still down because they had a wet winter and spring. He said when he calculated the carry over for this budget it was less than the $1.2 million and didn't think he could be down in the $800,000 or $900,000 range and was convinced that $1.3 million, by working from the other direction, would be closer to the number they would have and was not convinced he would make the $1.3 million.

Purcell said they need to discuss the additional revenue from the Landfill because there will obviously be additional revenue and Livingston may be right. Livingston said there were people who were beginning to bring trash to the Landfill who had been hauling it quite a way and some had their own landfill and it was cheaper to bring it to the City's Landfill and some people have said it will be an additional 25%.

Purcell said Ihler provided an optimistic figure of $725,000 on the premise that between now and July 1 they would be increasing the landfill fees citywide not just commercial. He said there will be more revenue even if that number is optimistic. Livingston said a half million dollars is a reasonable number.

Purcell said if they didn't raise utilities they would either have to raise revenue or cut expenses by $2.2 million and this is half a million from the landfill of the $2.2 million. He said they need to consider some number for increased revenue over and above what is in the budget today. Livingston said he can put those numbers in or they can if Council is going to do this.

Williams said $400,000 may be a very optimistic number and it may be more than that but they don't know what will happen, they prefaced the meeting with the ways they go through and identify budget and it seems as though they are going to get to the final department and are going to have to start cutting 3% to 5% and that is what they need to be thinking about. He said if a utility increase is unacceptable then they need to start working on something.

Purcell said they don't know how much to cut it, and if they can find out how much total dollars the City Manager will know how much has to be cut out if they are going to raise utility rates and if they agree on the number that Livingston brings them for the increased revenue at the Landfill that will be less that number from $2.2 million he has to cut and if they go on to sales taxes and water revenue they may find another half million dollars and assuming they find a million dollars more of revenue now he only has to cut $1.2 million.

Williams said if the revenues are higher, the sales taxes is higher then everything is to the good and what was identified as not being purchased or used or expended in the budget can be expanded later when the money becomes available.

COMMENTS/REPORTS

Powell said there is a ground breaking ceremony at 3:00 p.m. west of 82nd Street and Lee Boulevard for the Roadrunner project.

Purcell asked if they were going to go through Public Works and Parks and Recreation cutting out $2,000 in each department and then tell the City Manager to cut out whatever the $2.2 million is from the budgets and didn't know where they were heading.

Williams said they are not going to find $2.2 million in two more budgets. He asked if they should be giving the City Manager direction of some type of percentage decrement or cuts.

Beller said whatever it takes, whether it is decrements, cuts etc. it should be up to the City Manager to bring that budget to the Council and if it takes 2% or 3% he knows more about that than the Council members but he has to have direction.

Williams said the Manager knows they don't like a $5.65 utility increase but they haven't given him any other direction.

Purcell said they can give him direction to come back with a budget with no increase in utility rates if that is what the consensus is and then the Manager would do as suggested by Beller or they can continue and get it lower and take the percentage later on. He said if they do that they don't need to have any more meetings they can just direct the Manager to bring back a new budget with no utility increase and he can figure out what percentage he needs to give to the departments and they can cut it and bring back a new budget.

Smith said they would need to maintain the same service they are giving now or they will have to drop service.

Shanklin said they haven't addressed the RFP's for grass cutting and it may cost them more or less.

Beller said when the Manager comes back with the finished product they will know if they need to increase utilities but if he comes back with a budget that is acceptable with decrements in it that they can accomplish. He said if they are going to perform the same level of service next month as they are this month they aren't going to do it with what they have. Williams disagreed.

Purcell said for example they have 3 supervisors in refuse collections that supervise the drivers and what they really do is pick up the trash from people who call in who didn't put their trash out on time because they know when the trash collector goes by a house if there is trash there they pick it up without fail, those are 3 supervisors that could basically be eliminated, however, the impact is the citizen who is used to putting their trash out late won't get their trash picked up any more that person will just have to wait until the next trash pick up. He said they need to be willing to deal with those citizens, that wouldn't impact the service in reality to the public for picking up trash it just removes the extra perk for those who don't do what they are supposed to do and get it picked up anyway. He said those are the types of things the Council has to decide, are they going to bite the bullet and take the heat if they are willing to do that.

Smith said whatever they instruct the City Manager to do they have to be willing to support him whether it means reduction in service for a perk or something else because they will get the phone calls.

Shanklin said he went out to look at the latrines at Ralph's Resort and if they are tearing up the latrines out there they need to put a fence around them and have them locked. He said he still didn't know what they did from October to March at the Lakes, if it is maintenance what are they doing maintenance on, they are going to have to address that because the City Manager is not. He said they can't tell him that they have an agenda out there that requires the equipment they have been using, and that is $200,000 to $300,000. He asked why they have to keep the latrines open all year long, they could lock them up because there are very few people out there.

Williams said the City Manager has done what they have asked him to do which was to prepare a budget based on his best estimates of the same level of service and then present it to them. He said he would like to listen to the other departments they have not heard because there are some valid opportunities of how they actually function and there are some concerns regarding the lakes and the mowing. He asked the Council to support the idea of giving the City Manager a direction that they start looking at some percentage that he can provide the information back to the department heads that they can start working on and that information be presented to them in the next week or two.

Shanklin suggested looking at 2.5%

Powell asked the consensus of Council and the consensus was to continue.

Schumpert said the budget has to be approved by June 20.

Powell suggested providing some direction because they are going to have to start cutting somewhere.

Members discussed where the money was going to come from to balance the budget to pay for the infrastructure and services the City provides.

Warren said part of what they have to decide is one of the departments, Parks and Recreation, in reality except for the mowing portion of that department is perks, it doesn't have to do with people working in schools and providing water and sewer and the things the city is tasked with doing. He said over time they have had extra funds and have built things into Parks and Recreation that are nice but that doesn't mean they have to be there. He said each Council member needs to decide what their constituents want, do they want less service possibly on their trash pick up, do they want a higher utility bill or less money spent on parks and recreation and there are perks they can look at.

The meeting adjourned at 8:35 p.m. with a motion and second being made and approved.